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Two Croatian Canadair aircraft putting out fires in Israel

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Two Croatian Canadair aircraft continued on Saturday to put out widespread forest fires in Israel which threaten houses and, despite difficulties in taking water from the Mediterranean Sea, flew until dusk on Friday. (eblnews.com) 更多...

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Drivingrain1
Pete Marsh 4
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_firefighting
For a Wiki entry it's quite informative on tanker types & capabilities. If you scroll down to the tactics and capabilities portion there is this....
Some firefighting aircraft can refill their tanks in mid-flight, by flying down to skim the surface of large bodies of water. One example is the Bombardier CL-415. This is particularly useful in rural areas where flying back to an airbase for refills may take too much time. In 2002 an Ontario CL-415 crew was able to refill 100 times within a 4-hour mission, delivering an astounding 162,000 US gallons (613,240 l) or 1,350,000 pounds (612 t) of water on a fire near Dryden Ontario.[citation needed] { June 1, 2002 Dryden fire # 10 Tanker #271 civil ident C-GOGE }

I flew this type for 12 seasons. I can tell you this is unusual but is common enough around the world. This represent the maximum performance under ideal circumstances with an adjacent water source. This works out to a drop every 2 minutes. Ferry time to and from the fire was 20 min each way a total of 200 minutes were spent in fire mode.

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jbsimms
James Simms 3
When your small country's burning up, you'll do whatever it takes to save it....and the Israelis' are pretty good @ doing what ever it takes.
Highflyer1950
20,000 poinds of water every hour and 1600 pounds per drop via CL-415 every 15 minutes makes a good case for using both at the same fire.
Highflyer1950
Sorry, meant 20,000 us gal and 1600 us gal for each plane?

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joelwiley
joel wiley 3
You might take a look at the figures here, albeit somewhat dated:
http://fireaviation.com/tag/very-large-air-tanker/
One source listed the Evergreen 747 charges of $75K/ day + $12K/hr & DC 10 at $27.8K +$13K/hr. I recall ANG estimates on C-130 MAFFS about $10K/hr.

This 2012 doc:
www.nifc.gov/PIO_bb/Background/2012FFAircraftFactSheet.docx

listed CL-215 billable costs at $9.1K + $7.5K/hr

Then this website has some cl-215's for sale
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=CANADAIR&model=CL-215&s-type=aircraft

Do some research, run the numbers, but remember that Google only knows of 10-20% of the data on the web.
Good hunting.

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 5
The best time to stop a wildland fire is when it covers 1 sq ft.

You don't sound like a Canadair sales rep; were that true, you would have the answers to your questions at the tip of your tongue.

The amphib is just one more tool in the locker, along with the SEATs, big gun tankers, dozers, engines, tankers, shovels, pulaskis & McClouds and of course a whopping lot of dedicated people.
bentwing60
bentwing60 4
Thank you Joel, and well put!
jlenihan
To expand on Joel's comments about the right tool in the she,in the USA, large air tankers and "Helitankers" (S-64s, etc..)are "National Resources" and can be snatched away from your fire if a bigger priority pops up so you sometimes take what you can get.Assuming you can get what ever you want, tactical priorities will drive your resource requests.
1. Super Scoopers drop water, Very Large Air Tankers (VLAT = MD11, 747) down to Single Engine Air Tankers (SEAT) drop retardant.
Water is for direct attack, an offensive maneuver requiring ground resources to act relatively soon after the drop or it evaporates.Water is dropped on the fireline
Retardant is a time providing maneuver to sloww the spread until ground pounders can arrive and construct a fireline. Retardant can be applied hours before the fire gets there.
2.Super Scoopers require an arrival and departure path to execute their assignment. Helicopters can arrive over their target from just about any direction and depart through the same slice of airspace. So if they have to work in the same area of the fire coordination is complicated.
3. In Southern CCalifornia, down canyon winds often drive the worst fires. Super Scoopers drop into the wind which means dropping towards rising terrain. The result is a higher drop and less effective water delivery as the wind breaks up and redirects the water. Helicopters can arrive into the wind, execute a 180, drop the load, and depart downhill.
It is great that we have so many tools available but choosing the tool is the job of the Fire Management Team.
djames225
djames225 1
Amen Joel...remember that from the Fort Mac fires

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joelwiley
joel wiley 3
"Essentials of Fire Fighting and Fire Department Operations" (6th Edition)
ISBN-10 0879395214 is out. I stand corrected, it is McLeod. SEAT is an acronym for Single Engine Air Tanker. For the others, Google is your friend.

I have not seen the book to which you refer but it is published by International Fire Safety Training Assn. It seems to be basic training for urban firefighter and the IFSTA may have other guides for wildland fire training. I believe the USFS also have some. If you are interested in the subject, you can do research and become a relative expert yourself.

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joelwiley
joel wiley 2
I didn't know SEAT until I googled it. You can too.
ISBN - International Standard Book Number
USFS - United States Forest Service

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Re: going to Google to 'look it up'
https://www.google.com/search?q=pike%27s+pole&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I see no problem with suggesting one to go look something up.
As they say, the difference between ignorance and stupidity is that only one is curable.

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djames225
djames225 3
Joel and no one other respondant to your comment, insinuated anything regarding "stupidity"..I use Google and other search engines quite frequently, if I'm stumped or with to learn more about a particular item..its not called being stupid, Wilbur, if you don't want to look things up..it's called being lazy!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Probably not, Wilbur - but the comment, nevertheless, seemed appropriate.
wingbolt
wingbolt 1
I wonder how many times Joel has been suspended from this site for insuating that people are "stupid".
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
I did have one post downvoted off visibility. Retrospectively, I had to agree with the downvoters, and learned from it.
wingbolt
wingbolt 3
My post was full of sarcasm. I never thought you were suspended although I think Wilbur might know someone who has. Just a hunch on my part though.
djames225
djames225 3
I think you have good reason to have that hunch.
Paciano
McLeod refers to the McLeod Tool, commonly known as a rake-hoe. It's a simple implement of hardened steel fastened at right angles to a long handle. On one side there are several rough teeth for raking burning embers or forest litter to clear a path; on the other side of the steel plate there is a razor sharp edge for cutting and slashing undergrowth. They are standard tools for firefighters on the ground.

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Paciano
Wilbur: I should have explained that I am writing from Australia and the McLeod tool is a tool for rural (bush) fire fighters, not city units called out to fight what you Americans call wildfires. We refer to them as "bushfires" irrespective of their size and devastation. Nevertheless I was under the impression that the McLeod tool originated in America. The tool is mainly of use before a fire, to clear combustible matter and form a fire break, or after the fire has passed to deal with burning logs, embers, etc. It's obviously not the right thing to use against a wall of flames!
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Mr. Luck,
I take a McLeod and shovel camping. It does well for creating fire breaks around campfires. Mr. Sanchez is, IMNSHO, a sock puppet for a troll twice suspended from FlightAware.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
I believe you're right, Joel - the superior attitude in the writing style sounds sadly familiar.
Paciano
Mr Wiley, thank you. Although an Australian, I lived in Italy 1990-2001. In that time I organised a local bushfire brigade for our village, based on the practices of the New South Wales Volunteer Bushfire Brigade. I bought and took to Italy a dozen McLeod tools, which were put to good use when a fire in the pine forest above the village went up. That day we were saved by the Canadairs. I recounted the incident in my book Villa Foruna, which you may find, although now out of print.
TorstenHoff
One problem with this fire (any many like it) are the high winds which fan the flames and carry burning embers hundreds or thousands of feet downwind. The Super Scoopers don't have the water/retardant carrying capacity to create a effective fire break -- they are great for making tactical drops and attacking hotspots, but they lack the capacity to lay down a half-mile swath of Phos-Chek.

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davidrbarnes
Wilbur: It sounds like you're pretty familiar with amphib ops. Do you fly one yourself?
carlsonj
... maybe a Lake amphib?
YvonTARRE
Yvon TARRE 4
Hi all of you .It's the first time i come to share with you. Sorry for my poor English.

I have been working on fire bombers during more than 20 years. Flying DC 6 B; S2F Tracker and CL415.
I agree with almost every one. Remember also that CL 415 is very, very, expensive ... and i don't speak about repairs : Bombing Computer. And if you are working in salted area you need to wash and rince engines and body each day : Mandatory.

We were working with 5 or 6 Tracker patrol of 12 flying high with retardant over the dangerous areas when temperature was high and weather windy. Their job was INITIAL ATTACK when fire was the smallest pssible. They made an incredible job and Canadair, Fokker stay on ground without job very often.

In another way we noticed that 90% of surface fire happened 4 or 5 days a year with very strong winds over 40kts.

Will be please to read you again ...
djames225
djames225 2
Wilbur you know not of which you speak..
"So we are not arguing - all I am suggesting is that if more fire service organizations had access to the Canadair amphibs, they could, as you note, make "tactical" drops.

Obviously, if done early on, the fire would be stopped BEFORE it became a monster."

That kind of thinking sure as hell didnt help us in Fort Mac...all it takes is a small shift in wind and those fires turn on you in an instant, becoming said monster, tactical fast drops or not
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
See also the squawk at:
http://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/24_hours/popular/58099/Water_supertanker_lands_in_Israel
ExCalbr
Also 747 water bomber.
https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/79167/fires-continue-rage-throughout-israel-sabbath/#Fcx5d5Arukd2UgpZ.97

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

Cadefoster
Cade foster 2
full of hate zippy, pretty sad. And Trump is on record for supporting Israel against the Islamic radical states.

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