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Boeing warns Seattle could lose 777X if deal rejected

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Boeing Co said on Friday it was ready to look for another location to build its newest jet if assembly workers and local politicians do not ratify plans to build it in the Seattle area, its traditional manufacturing base. The U.S. planemaker issued the warning just hours after senior members of the International Association of Machinists union voiced strong opposition to a proposed labor contract that is due to go to a membership vote next Wednesday. (www.reuters.com) 更多...

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preacher1
preacher1 7
Whether it is just hotheaded union talk or serious will be told next week at the vote but Boeing is in a position now that they haven't been in for times past as far as being able to move or do things different. Folks in Seattle need to realize that there are other places that Boeing can go and that they are not ENTITLED to a job. It will be interesting.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Have they been asleep for a decade...... Or so.......???
preacher1
preacher1 5
Like I said, they feel ENTITLED to it; damn profitability; they must provide us a job; There were a whole bunch of industries that were in the North/Northeast that were there forever that moved South when they couldn't effectively manage their own company. It will be interesting. People have done stranger things but they need to realize that Boeing is serious. On another subject, looks like you might get some snow up there next week, depending on who you listen to.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
I've got my fall chores done. Bring it on. Mess with me and I'll go to Florida. Lol
bishops90
Brian Bishop -1
We may get snow here TOMORROW!
chris13
I guess the Machinists union didn't get the message with the 767 plant. So unless the NLRB decides it's illegal for a company to put a plant where they want, I say Boeing should break the strangle-hold that the union has on them in Seattle and move on down to the Southeast, where things are less expensive and the union is pretty powerless.
evbutler
Ev Butler 4
North Carolina would be happy to have a Boeing factory. NC has great incentives, low tax rates, a Right-to-Work state, people anxious to work, and affordable land. Boeing doesn't have to be held captive by Washington state. There are many other places that will welcome them with open arms. NC has two seaports and several interstate highways for easy transportation. Also, community colleges in almost every town ready to train the employees. Call their bluff and move to a state where they won't be bothered with union contracts.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Not to mention 11,500 feet of runway at Kinston
canuck44
canuck44 3
Boeing is probably hoping for a rejections and are setting the stage for moving South to a non-union facility. If they set up building wings of composite material for the 777X, that same technology, personnel and facility could also build much of the 787 wing for both Seattle and Charleston. An opportunity to stick it to both the unions and the Japanese while saving costs and aggravation.
bishops90
We'll build it here in SC. Just sayin'
evbutler
Ev Butler 1
That's right, Preacher1. Plenty of runway, plenty of cheap land, and a high unemployment rate. People are anxious to work. They won't have any trouble finding labor and given a few months, the community colleges can crank out machinists. Ruger Firearms is building a factory in that area. I say, "Welcome to NC, a Right-to-Work state where Boeing won't be worried with union bosses and harsh winters."
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I ran across this today. It does take a slightly different view on the contract issue.
Thought it was worth posting here.

http://portside.org/2013-11-18/why-boeing-machinists-fight-matters
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
Old news! This agreement was announced earlier this week. The union members still need to vote on it next week. That's the point when there will be big news one way or the other.

On another front, the state approved a tax package that will be helpful.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
The article is from 5 days ago BEFORE some senior union members ripped io the agreement at a Thursday meeting and BEFORE Friday protests at an Everett factory and BEFORE the legislature passed the tax measures Boeing was requesting.

So in other other words VERY OLD NEWS!!

[This comment was deleted.]

JetMech24
JetMech24 3
They give Boeing a tax break and are going to increase gas tax by 4 cents a gallon, go figure.
JetMech24
JetMech24 1
Update: It is officially an 11 cents a gallon increase.

[This comment was deleted.]

Alamo1000
Alex Ohde 1
Thanks for the info, I just posted what I found. It would probably be best if you make a squawk with that info. Ive already had my chance with this, and I dont want to steal your thunder.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
Thanks! Just did.

It's under that 'Washington state lawmakers pass tax breaks aiming to win Boeing work' link.

The other 'union agreement' link was just an accidental link to this squawk that you posted. Normally this kind of info had it not been posted (which it has been squawked throughout the week) and had there not been new developments on an almost daily basis (there have been frequent news worthy events almost every day this week about the 777X program in Washington or the union agreement or the legislature's tax breaks) would be perfectly appropriate for this forum. But after almost a week of daily new developments, the news is a bit dated.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
The following I the most up to date article posted on the topic in this past week:

Washington state lawmakers pass tax breaks, aiming to win Boeing work
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9A80FB20131110?irpc=932&irpc=932

There may not be any new significant developments until after the union vote on Wednesday. After then, we'll have a better sense whether Boeing will be moving more production toward areas with more cooperative labor.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Washington state lawmakers pass tax breaks, aiming to win Boeing work

OLYMPIA, Washington (Reuters) - The Washington state legislature on Saturday passed a measure to extend nearly $9 billion in tax breaks for Boeing through 2040 in an embattled effort to entice the company to locate production of its newest jet, the 777X, in the Seattle area.

Lawmakers acknowledged, however, that their efforts would likely be undermined if the airplane maker's key machinists union votes down a proposed labor contract due to go before the membership on Wednesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9A80FB20131110?irpc=932&irpc=932
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish -1
The above was timely news about a major event over the weekend (the passage of legislation in Washington state over that has a potentially big impact on the manufacture of commercial airliners in the state. Unlike some other posts That were posted over the weekend that simply rehashed nearly week old news, and are glommed together here in an old post.

Many readers will not get a chance to see the newly squawked news because it was added to an old post.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish -1
That it received about 20 upvotes in a few hours shows that the topic is news worthy for many individuals. Unfortunately many others will miss the news because it is buried in an old post.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish -1
I only posted it to show that rather than post 5-6 day old article with outdated news (that had already been posted when new); timely articles were available to be shared with newsworthy developments from that happened over the weekend.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
Duplicate!
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, the difference in the other is that the legislature did pass the package, unless I missed something. It is still going to be up to that Union Vote on Wednesday. That will be the deciding factor. They may think they can call Boeing's bluff on this one as they have in the past, but they must wake up and realize that the world has changed, and if they want to live in Seattle, those contract terms will be the price; otherwise, Boeing is in a position to move. If they went to SC with the wingbuilding operation, they could swipe at the Japanese as well, as they could probably do 787 wing work as well.
canuck44
canuck44 1
Agree the wing assembly can be build anywhere but existing facilities in the Right to Work States can be converted to build wings for both programs rather quickly and will be welcomed by State and local governments. It is highly likely that additional work will be available when the 737 program rolls along to lighten that aircraft down the road.
preacher1
preacher1 1
It would all be good for the South. The tale will be told Wednesday, and I don't think Boeing is bluffing this time. They have not really had a chance to flex muscle in years past as they have now, and after that 2 month strike, they are probably hoping the union votes it down. Then the Union will learn what AMF means.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Adios, My Friend as Er.A.K.Mittal would say.....
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
He must have gotten a client. No essay today.
canuck44
canuck44 1
LOL...AMF YOYO....you are on your own. Lots of good sites in Florida, GA, Mississippi, Alabama and Texas to which they can move and reimport that work. Also there is a good facility with stable costs in Winnipeg already doing composite fabrication that could be expanded. I agree, Boeing would like to see this turned down for their plans go beyond a five year contract after which the shakedown could start over.
bennettgaryw
Gary Bennett -3
The only problem with moving it down south is the lack of a skilled work force. This is something that has been problematic for all companies that have tried this. Cheap labor dose not equated to a less expensive product! Only a loss of living wage and benefits...
canuck44
canuck44 4
Oh really...tell that to all the companies that manufacture in Texas, TN, SC, GA, FL. Likewise if these processes can be executed in Japan, Mexico, etc they can be done here without all the union BS and envirowhacko regulations.

We can even import workers...the only problem we have with them is they flee these high regulation states only to bring their socialist ideas here. We really need a regulation that they cannot vote for the first five years of emigrating to the South.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Let's don't forget AR,AL, MS and LA, or OK. I made a lot better living than a lot of my Northern counterparts for 36 years and have done fine since being semi-retired, and the company I worked for has thrived by offering consulting and management packages to others worldwide, some of them unionized and up NAWTH.
bennettgaryw
And you were in manufacturing?
preacher1
preacher1 2
I flew, still am some, and as I said, the company makes good money with management and consulting packages. You really haven't heard of any quality problems or strikes in Charleston, or Michelin or Hundai, or Gulfstream or Toyota; not to mention FedEx. Shall I go on?
preacher1
preacher1 2
Let's don't forget that Airbus is building a plant in Mobile
preacher1
preacher1 1
and that is about as far South as you can go unless you do Miami, but most of that is Northern folks coming down where it's warm.
bennettgaryw
I guess you did not understand the question. Toyota is having quality control problems. Look at the recalls, Toyota, Honda have exceeded the Big Three in recalls this year alone. By the way FedEx pilots are union...
preacher1
preacher1 1
Re: FedEx, in name only and only as a result of the Flying Tiger buyout, and I understood the question perfectly. You sound like a disgruntled Union member that still believes a private company owes you something. I am basically retired and old enough to speak as I feel, and as with a bunch of liberals, I won't be changing my mind, so this is my final comment. I feel if a man can't speak for himself, there is not much to him and if a company is bad enough to have a union, they are not worth working for. IMHO.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Lots of government is just that stupid Preach. My brother is city mgr for Chicago suburb. Spends tons of time and taxpayer money on union negotiations with multiple unions. Their taxes are ridiculous.
bennettgaryw
By dodging the question with useless rhetoric is typical of a person who is so set in their ways they can not have a useful dialect. I am quite sure a person such as yourself has a real problem with CRM. And the pilots at FedEx are still union as are the UPS pilots. I am retired fly about once a week and old enough to know I am not always right. Something your age has not thought you yet...
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, I am about halfway back to the house from FSM but I had to answer this. I don't see how I have dodged the question with useless rhetoric unless you were unclear to begin with. You are the on making the snide comment about cheaper and no skills in the South. Myself and several others called you down on that. I retired in 2009 after 36 years of active on both a 707 and 757. I am a strong believer in CRM and besides being written out in SOP is practiced and encouraged. I had a dose of it in reverse as a young FE and vowed that If I was ever promoted to Captain I would never have a cockpit like I had been subjected to, and that was in the days before CRM.; To me, that is why there is more than 1 in a cockpit. I came back for a year temporarily to fly some and train some newbies. You can say what you want about my attitude and thought process but it seems to be just fine to those that know me. Point blank, you seem to be pro union and I am not. Neither of us will change our minds. We agree to disagree. End of story.
bennettgaryw
Thanks for your FINAL comment again...
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Are you making an assertion that the QC problems at Toyota and Honda are attributable to lack of skilled labour at plants in the South East?
bennettgaryw
No, Just pointing out Toyota and Honda have the same QC problems as other manufactures union or nonunion! Most people believe Toyota and Honda are beyond reproach while they have the same problems. Anyway I support Boeing and their work force..
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Well, you did mention Toyota and Honda in the context of moving jobs to the South and QC problems. You now mention that they are now grouped with the pack, to to speak, in QC. Your point seems to be that their stellar QC reputation has become somewhat 'tarnished'. That is old news and not related to geography which I inferred from your statements in this thread.

As for an untrained workforce, the major difference between ignorance and stupidity is that one is curable.

Further, I don't believe Preacher1 was dodging your question, and your ad hominem attack adds nothing to the conversation. BTW 'dialect' is what Preacher1 writes in occasionally for effect: I believe the word you were looking for was 'dialog'-

In an attempt to return to the focus of the thread (and maybe pour oil on troubled fires), as a member of a number of unions since 1969, I am concerned that the Bosses (mischaracterized as leadership) are more concerned with their next union election than the long-term benefit for the union membership as a whole. This is similar to management's detrimental focus on the next quarters numbers matching wall street expectations rather than the long term health of the company.
JetMech24
JetMech24 2
Have you been under a rock the last decade? With all of the layoffs and such the skilled work force is all over the entire country, with that said, it doesn't take much skill to drill a hole and pound a rivet or glue two parts together.
bennettgaryw
If that is your opinion of Skilled Labor, then you as a ?( JetMech) have really debased your skill set. Have fun bucking rivets!!
JetMech24
JetMech24 1
There is a huge difference in building them and fixing them. And for your FYI, I spent a lot of money training for aviation maintenance, I have a college degree, I am certified by the US Federal Government to work on aircraft, yet that same government classifies A&P mechanics as UNSKILLED Labor.
bennettgaryw
Wow I am impressed! I think? Most people who fabricate(build) aircraft have a good idea how the work (fix) them. Not all systems that is correct, but even you have limitations what you can do or not do on a aircraft. You and I know you are skilled at what you do and I hope you wouldn't allow the government to tell you otherwise...

blake1023
blake1023 1
I dont think Gulfstream that problem...
canuck44
canuck44 1
...and if you remember, AirBus was going to build their tankers in the South.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That's quite illustrative that Airbus would also consider to locate a North American presence in the south, despite the expertise in the noryhwest.

Even with all the aeronautical engineering and commercial aircraft manufacturing talent available in the Seattle area, even socialist Europe-based Airbus would probably reject the opportunity to locate near Seattle and employ talented an experienced personnel available there. Though they likely purchase components from vendors that are located near Boeing, as surely Boeing does in reverse, buying some components from vendors, that are located near Airbus facilities.

That foreign manufacturers (car, airplane, etc) consider and/or set up manufacturing facilities in the South, successfully building their products and employing many, clearly illustrates the competitive disadvantage of northern rust belt states. Unless Seattle learns from Detroit's historical mistakes, that geographic area is destined to repeat them.
Alamo1000
Alex Ohde -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Union Agreement Boosts Hope That 777X Work Stays In Seattle

Boeing has reached a tentative agreement with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers union that, if ratified, will help clear the way for the final assembly of the Boeing 777X and its composite wing in the Puget Sound area of Washington. The provisional agreement—which aims to secure a long-term contract extension from 2016 to 2024—is expected to be voted on by the machinists around Nov. 13. In a related development, further influence to keep the work in the Seattle area was also brought to bear on Boeing by Jay Inslee, governor of Washington, who announced a tentative deal to give up to $8 billion in tax incentives to the company through 2040.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_11_06_2013_p0-634090.xml
kwu20001
kev wu -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Boeing building next-gen 777 in Puget Sound? Not so fast.

Days after announcing its intention to build its next major jetliner in the Seattle area, aerospace giant Boeing Co. said the decision is not yet final.

At issue is a tentative labor agreement with International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers union in Washington. A vote is scheduled for Wednesday, but late Thursday the Seattle Times reported that a union leader publicly tore up a copy of the contract and announced his intention to have it withdrawn.

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-boeing-777-washington-union-20131108,0,2851319.story

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