Airlines Want To Cancel Rule Requiring Them To Refund Fares For Canceled Flights

Depends on a lot of Circumstances really.... If the flight was canceled, they they should have to refund, if the passenger decided not to fly then it should be on the passenger

"I pay money for a seat on their airplane providing transportation from point A to point B" **...on a given date at a given time!**

Don't forget that part.

Very poor analogy, try this:

Walk into a high-end car dealer.

Order a new car to be delivered in say a month. (Similar to the flight I booked to Norway)

Two weeks later the dealer calls up and says the Factory burned down and production has stopped and all the completed cars were stepped on by giant trolls.

You say - well, I guess I can't get a car now and the dealer says - that's right ---- but I am keeping your money. Thanks for all the Fish.

However, I did get a full refund on the flight.

Why is the capitalism process to blame here? Capitalism is merely a group organizing to raise funds for a large innovation, and has nothing to do with a bunch of crooks who may be using it for their purposes. Do all large corporations need better supervision from whistleblowers/police and honest politicians? Yes.

If any airlines are offering a credit voucher in lieu of a cash refund, then they should at least allow the customer (passenger) to be able to redeem the voucher through Dec. 31, 2021. By giving them a redemption restriction only through the end of 2020 is not enough especially if their planned vacation or business trip is an annual affair or event (e.g. Sun 'n Fun canceled until 2021).

John, a voucher is a promise, and is of little value. There are restrictions on how a customer can use them, and they usually apply as a credit towards a higher level of travel. The only airline that seems to have value if Southwest, where it offers a cancellation and cash credit for future flight.
Emphasis is …. READ THE CONTRACT. Read what the airline offers under its obligation to provide air carriage. Basically, if you accept a voucher the airline is deemed to have satisfied its obligation under its contract with you, and you take your chances when you try to use the voucher. They really are of less integrity than a junk bond, and I doubt if you would invest in junk bonds, yet passengers accept these vouchers!

Maybe if in Germany you could file a lien and claim a piece of a Lufthansa-owned aircraft. This may be a good reason to stick to domestic corporations on international flights. When you get back you can keep calling them and filing court actions. With luck you could claim a piece of the tail or something.

AA doesn't fix that. Boeing does - on their dime, not AA's.

My wife and I bought tickets 2/28 on Delta as part of a travel package for 4/24-5/6. The week after we grew concerned that government travel restrictions could keep us from taking our trip, and reviewed the trip insurance program offered by the travel agency. The phrase "cancel for any reason" referred to a level of trip insurance that is more expensive than the base level insurance. The base level insurance specifically bars recovery of money due to government travel prohibitions, i.e. it is not "cancel for any reason" trip insurance.

Travel insurance varies by air carrier. It pays to actually read the policy before buying the insurance since they do vary from airline to airline. Generally, there are so many out clauses that it becomes frustrating to get a payment.

please tell me you are taking this to court. a contract that contradicts itself.

Ordinary trip insurance only covers ordinary risks, such as lost luggage, missed connections, and someone falling ill while on the trip. Government travel prohibitions are specifically not included under ordinary trip insurance. "Cancel for any reason" coverage is substantially more expensive; it allows for someone to just decide not to go. People make economic decisions based on their risk tolerance; most would not purchase "cancel for any reason" because of a) its cost and b) their ability to control most of the circumstances under which " cancel for any reason" might be used in ordinary circumstances.

An airline's "contract of carriage" is a contract that states when and how any fares paid might be refunded, and are fairly one-sided in favor of the airlines. The exception is when the airline can't provide the flight that they have sold, or another equivalent flight within an hour and a half (90 minutes) of the flight they sold. In this case US law requires that they refund the fare collected. In the case of this risk, which a consumer can't control, the law has already mandated a remedy. That is why the "all-knowing airline business commentators" didn't purchase "trip insurance."

If the law changes and any money paid in advance to an airline become refundable solely at the airline's discretion, then I expect the insurance industry will have a new product to sell. Of course, other businesses might want in on the action as well. "Why no sir, the car that we required you to pay for fully in advance (so that we could build it in our factory) can't be delivered to you because our factory was closed down by the government, but we won't be giving you any money back. Please buy another car from us soon!" "Yes, sir, we know that you paid in advance for a meal in our restaurant to be consumed this coming Friday (so that we could afford to hire the cooks, buy the food, etc.), but we can't provide it to you because we lost power and had to close the restaurant. You won't be getting any of your money back, but please book again soon for next month!"

Ironically, the money they will use to refund your money is the taxpayer's money - your money.
The major airlines are broke. In the last century, as the airline industry evolved, governments around the world started airlines and owned them so as to earn foreign exchange. Qantas, Air New Zealand, BOAC, Malaysian, Philippine, Japan, I could go on and on. They all flogged off the airlines to the public, profiting as they did. Now they should own them again if they are bailing them out.
Airlines have been screwing us over for years with diminished quality, seats pitch that I can't sit in, and I'm against a bailout.
The government's position is that the bailout will keep salaries going to employees - but it also rewards shareholders who should be the gainers in a good economy and the losers in a recession. The airlines should be allowed to fail.

Exactly my feelings as well. I was told I HAD to accept a cash voucher that the airline offered that a) expired only one year from when I purchased my tickets (not the date of my canceled flight), and b) was only good for the cash value (and not the equivalent flight at a future date). I was repeatedly told that I had to accept this even though I specifically requested a refund under Rule 22 of Delta's Contract of Carriage. I was repeatedly told that I just didn't understand how things worked and that my understanding of the contract and the law was wrong. If I had been offered a cash or trip (same flight origin/destination) voucher with a two or three year validity I would probably have acquiesced instead of calling back repeatedly and requesting that I get the refund required (until a supervisor finally agreed).

The logic astounds me - the longer the airline has had my money in their bank account (paid in advance) the less time I have to use a cash voucher? Whether intended or not, I perceive this as arrogance on the part of the airlines and not an attempt to come to a solution that benefits both parties.

you might want to read the article. it discusses the vouchers.

Agreed Rick! Excellent points.

O.K. Dan, we have sloppy refund rules; Don Trump and others are responsible for this and should watch their ways? O.K.

Lawsuits leave a longer legacy than refunds.

You are so right..I want nothing more than the same flights at another available date to get home but Air France makes it impossible for us to rebbok

TO avoid confusion re my post, I was offered a credit voucher for each cancelled flight.

Let's just do it the old-fashioned way: pay at the gate when you pick up your ticket to board. Then if the flight is cancelled, you don't show up, no money exchanges hands, and no refund is due.

Basic trip insurance doesn't cover a government prohibition on travel; trip insurance that does is substantially more expensive. In my case, the voucher/credit offered by the airline was wholly inadequate - the credit had to be used within 1 year of the original purchase date (not the originally scheduled travel) or it "expired" (i.e., airline just kept the money). It was only a credit for the amount paid and not for the flights I had scheduled, so I would have to pay any cost difference between what I had already paid and the future cost of the flight. With the current situation, all of the risk would be on me - it is unlikely that I would be able to travel within the 1 year from purchase limitation. The airline was also gaming the system exactly as you suggest they could - they had "suspended" flight service, but had technically not canceled the flight, so would not issue a refund.

There was no option to "be worked out" - the airline was going to keep my money, not transport me anywhere, and probably receive a government bailout to keep them running in any case. If the airline had offered a credit with a 2 or 3 year time limit I might taken the credit even though the airline's one-sided "Contract of Carriage" as well as US law clearly states that in this (one) case I should get a refund. However, the airline attempted to not only evade complying with the clearly written contract that they wave around in every other case against consumers, but to do so in a way that was practically useless to me.

Read the insurance small print - it's not worth a dime in a pandemic!

why are you yelling at me?

Please Don't Shot!

Please stop typing in capitals, it’s annoying.

Returning an item that you already have in hand is not a fair comparison. This is a service that you were promised and was never delivered. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that DOT regulations require a full refund for cancelled or significantly modified flight itineraries.

As you mentioned, there are people who are employed by these airlines and again, as you mention, part of the airline bailout agreement is that those individuals will continue to receive a paycheck through September. It is wrong for the airlines to STEAL hard earned money from families who are hurting and could use the hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, they spent on flights that will not be flown. This is money that could be used for mortgages, car payments, groceries, etc.

What happens when they go broke and the Chinese buy the assets?

Easier sais than done because if you bought a round trip and flew the outbound portion , you need to get back home and a refund on an economy ticket does not cover the cost of a return flight home.
It is what happened to us. We flew Air France from New York to Paris end of February. Our return flight on March 31 was canceled by Air France and we are unable to rebook.
A refund would be around $300.00 for an economy fare booked 5 months prior departure.
A regular one way ticket for the same flight would be $1700
Shame on Air France

I think this is about passengers canceling their trip, not the airline canceling it. They want to make the fares 'non-refundable', and likely not able to be rescheduled for a later flight.

But either way, they cancel, or the passenger cancels, it's pretty draconian to say 'we got your money, buzz off'. It might turn into a boon for the 'travel insurance' racket, but it just plain sucks hard. It could have a huge impact on the recovery of the travel industry, especially given that researchers are saying this coronavirus could be around throughout the year, and possibly into next, with spikes and surges in numbers of infected and dead...

Trip insurance is available; what is covered depends upon how much you pay. Basic trip insurance only covers certain travel-related issues, such as missing a connecting flight, lost luggage, getting sick while traveling. Government travel prohibitions were specifically NOT included on the basic trip insurance contract I reviewed. "Cancel for any reason" coverage is available, but if I recall correctly the cost was about 1/3 the cost of the entire trip. However, in my case the airline's "Contract of Carriage" as well as US FAA regulations require a refund of the full fare paid if a) the airline can't provide the flight sold (or another within 90 minutes of the originally scheduled flight), and b) the customer requests a refund. It is not normal for a customer of a business to have to insure themselves against the business failing to deliver what was purchased (no matter what the reason why it can't be delivered).

There sure is and not really expensive either especially for domestic travel. There is quite an old adage which says "if you can't afford insurance you can't afford to travel" but in this day and age where everyone wants everything for nothing, or not much more, then complain because they then have to forkout for a bag.........why would they even think of 'lashing out' on travel insurance
Well that's how I feel about it. Maybe if you want to travel on the cheap then take a bus or Amtrak (and BTW Amtrak is still running).

The employees make up the airline and the so called "bailout" that you refer to is not a bailout at all.....it is going to pay the employees salaries for those who have lost their jobs; its not going into the pockets of the CEOs. Airlines are considered essential service, and go an extremely long way to keep the economy of the U.S going. If all the airlines go out of business, it would certainly take you a very long time to drive to your destination, particularly if you travel from coast to coast. If the airlines went out of business, millions of people would lose their jobs because there are a countless number of businesses that rely on the airline industry; hotels, rental cars, food vendors, fuel suppliers, etc. Airline employees work extremely hard and are extremely dedicated to their profession and to their passengers. So, next time you use the term "bailout" remember that that "bailout" is actually going to pay the people who fly you to your destination safely and to keep the airlines and many other businesses afloat during this most difficult time ever in our U.S. economy.

And insurers should not be allowed to have pandemic clauses. I get nothing for my cancelled flights, airlines won't pay, insurers won't pay

They also did all these stock buybacks, where they ended up paying WAY more for that stock than they would have after everything came apart.

And the Easter Bunny delivers all those eggs?

Agreed. The newly-graduated MBAs, now scantly employable, will realize that creatively swindling the travelling public may have its drawbacks/backsides (as they package groceries).

It is wrong and against DOT regulations to take money and not issue refunds for services that were not provided. If the airlines had any good sense, they would not spend cash that, although was technically in their pockets, could have needed to be refunded for any number of reasons. They have been through 9/11, the 2008 crash, the 737MAX, and other hard times and should have learned that they are not invulnerable to hard times.

It should not be a financial problem to issue refunds for flights that have not even been flown yet.

The individuals probably need it more.

I am out $1k right now because of this. I am afraid they will declare bankruptcy and somehow my money (credit) will disappear!

More than you and I will ever hear about...